tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9065080135451316107.post7301597371395957139..comments2023-11-23T22:52:52.864-05:00Comments on Louisiana Redbones: If You Don't Tell Your Own Story ...LV Hayeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01340544635540042886noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9065080135451316107.post-62928165428553255342010-01-03T00:28:39.143-05:002010-01-03T00:28:39.143-05:00Mr. Hayes, thank you for posting your info. I am ...Mr. Hayes, thank you for posting your info. I am a descendant of a number of the "Redbone" families and am hoping to learn more about my heritage!Clint Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00330374636971069296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9065080135451316107.post-71455552899026312992008-07-26T23:34:00.000-04:002008-07-26T23:34:00.000-04:00Gabeheart, aka Mishishitbo, refers to autosomnal D...Gabeheart, aka Mishishitbo, refers to autosomnal DNA test results which purport to identify ethnicity. He mischaracterizes and deliberately lies about the results of several tests. I would warn him that just because he knows the results of some people's tests, he has no right to disclose them publicly without the permission of the people whose tests he purports to publish. What a slimebucket.<BR/><BR/>Of interest to genealogists who are serious and not just pathetic blowhards, our Ashworth Y-chromosome identifies us as R1b which goes directly back to England, and our most numerous mtDNA is H haplogroup, which also goes directly back to England.<BR/><BR/>We do not know the source of our color. We know we're not White, but we do not know the direct source of our color. Anyone who says otherwise is simply farting and calling it music.<BR/><BR/>I think I smell pig shit. Tupperwear Two Feathers and his Sow must be nearby.Ray Bridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496709017124120407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9065080135451316107.post-34672150283582877042008-07-24T19:31:00.000-04:002008-07-24T19:31:00.000-04:00I have never bought the Marler theory of Tri-Racia...I have never bought the Marler theory of Tri-Racial Isolate. It's much more complicated than that. At best, it was multi-racial and some were and some were not! Even the Ashworth are turning up European and East Asian Indian with no American Indian. William Goyens of Nacogdoches turns out to be European and North American Indian by DNA testing. While the Droddy/ Bridges were testing in the %teens as African.<BR/><BR/>Some were and some were not!<BR/><BR/>Gary J. Gabehart, Mishiho<BR/>Mishiho@aol.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9065080135451316107.post-40140925252756413742008-06-24T02:46:00.000-04:002008-06-24T02:46:00.000-04:00Dear Mr. Hayes, I applaud your Foreword entry "If ...Dear Mr. Hayes,<BR/> <BR/>I applaud your Foreword entry "If You Don't Tell Your Own Story ...." You may already know that the link to kplctv.com no longer leads to Mr. Serra's September 9, 2007 article, and that a click on his archives for that month and year do not yield the article either. I have not seen his article, and don't need to, except perhaps to assess damage.<BR/> <BR/>My interest is history in general, especially American and local. I was born and raised in DeQuincy. Unlike some researchers, I realize that a little bit of Native American ancestry and being born in the Neutral Zone does not make me a Redbone (or of the group that some people want to call that). Therefore it was with reverence and trepidation that I undertook revision of the Wikipedia article titled "Redbones (ethnicity)." <BR/> <BR/>I had no idea what I was getting into. I only saw that the existing article was inadequate and flagged by Wikipedia for unsupported statements, "weasel words," and original research, which is prohibited. Therefore recently, and before adequately learning the rules myself, I substantially revised the heart of the article with a promise on the talk page to return and support my statements with proper citations. Now I see that I have only replaced the monstrosity that was there with the somewhat better monstrosity that it is today. And, in doing so, I have committed some of your pet peeves. Now, you do make me chuckle when you say, practically in one breath, both "We are not 'clannish'," and "We can't let our history be written by 'outsiders';" also when you include among "outsider efforts" an article by a Calcasieu Parish journalist named Goins. I humbly submit that, most of all, the story should be written according to the conventions of proper history writing. In that, I seek your help. Your comments have already moderated my thinking, and while Wikipedia requires (1) no original research, (2) neutral point of view, and (3) verifiability, I want to give weight as much as possible to the wishes and sensibilities of the living people whom the article seeks to explain.<BR/> <BR/>I have read Don Marler's 1997 paper "Louisiana Redbones," but not his book The Redbones of Louisiana which I presume to be more of the same. At first I was pleased to learn of the book's existence, before (and I say this in all goodwill for his interest and contribution) that he is not an academic or trained historian, nor an amateur who adheres, thus far, to the rules and procedures that any peer-reviewed journal or legitimate publishing house would require. I hope very much that he will institute academically acceptable rules and procedures for future editions of his work. If he does so, he may yet produce a book of the sort I had hoped to find when I learned that one existed.<BR/> <BR/>Wikipedia discourages content that relies on self-published histories, whether or not they support their claims with citations to other self-published works by the same author. Every claim that is made should be supported by a citation to a reliable authority, as they define that term. In order of preference, they want primary sources (e.g., census and other administrative data, autobiographies, eyewitness accounts, photographs), secondary sources (e.g. newspaper articles) which are such as typically cite primary sources, and tertiary sources, which are compendia such as encyclopedias.<BR/> <BR/>Wikipedia is not very excited about citations to encyclopedias, since it is an encyclopedia itself. However, the only source I have been able to find that meets Wikipedia reliability criteria is the brief compendium article by Everett, C. S., "Brass Ankles/Redbones" in Ray, Celeste, Vol, Ed., Ethnicity, 6 The New Encyclopedia of Southern Culture (University of North Carolina Press, 2007), pp. 102-104. Everett says, "Despite their numbers and dispersal, Louisiana Redbones are largely unstudied." Id. at 104. Nevertheless, he contributed two pages on them to the treatise. A Yale University networking site for scholars in American Indian Studies lists C. S. Everett (c.everett@vanderbilt.edu) as a Ph.D. Candidate at Vanderbilt University. The thumbnail biography states: "C. S. Everett is an independent scholar and director of the American Indian Research Authority, a consulting firm providing technical assistance to non-federally recognized tribes in the Southeast. He is also [a] doctoral candidate at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee, currently revising a manuscript on Indian Slavery in Virginia." http://www.yale.edu/ygsna/contactlist.html. The same treatise also includes some reference to "the Red Bones of Louisiana" in its uncredited opening article, "Ethnicity and Creolization." See, Ray, supra, at 14. <BR/> <BR/>As things now stand, Mr. Everett's article supports a good deal of what I improvised in the first Wikipedia revision, therefore I plan to add those citations where appropriate, and delete anything I cannot support with somewhat acceptable authority. In the talk pages I have asked for indulgence on this, because the term was pejorative and consequently little is written with reference to the ethonym. The present generation is writing the history now, and its quality, as we have seen, is a concern. Therefore, you may disagree with what Mr. Everett wrote, and in that case I would encourage you to contact him, or work with other academic historians working in the subject area, perhaps with leads on primary source materials. I would also appreciate any leads to the sort of material that is properly cited in Wikipedia. The thing about Wikipedia is that literally anyone can edit the articles after completing a sign-up that is little more onerous than the one I did to post this on your blog. The idea is that, over time, given its rules and review systems, a good and reliable article will result ("principle of eventuality").<BR/> <BR/>What will really shed light on this subject is the proverbial elephant in the parlor: a lot more ancestry DNA testing of descendants of the known progenitor families. Today DNA testing frees the wrongfully convicted from life incarceration. It resolved flat the debate that raged for a generation over whether the Neanderthals were a variant or subspecies of Homo sapiens (they were not). It can and will do the same for this controversy. Without any discussion of DNA, both authors who comment on the Louisiana Redbones in Ethnicity, supra, seem to accept the proposition that the group is "tri-racial." However, I get the sense from within the community (including your observations here) that if this is true of some families, it is thought to be far from accurately characterizing them all, and that this is the greatest bone of contention (no pun intended). One hopes that, apart from just wanting to know, it matters little to modern Americans what their ancestry actually is, so long as it is not misrepresented by anyone, and is respected by all.<BR/> <BR/>DNA does have limitations. I have seen one blogger, for instance, deny any sub-Saharan African descent for her entire family, because no such DNA appeared in her own results. However, it is important to remember that individuals do not receive all of the DNA that their parents carry. A famous example is the African-American host of the PBS series African-American Lives. After identifying tribe-specific African genes in the results of several black celebrities, he found none in his own results, despite his obvious situation. Instead, his Y-chromosome study showed that he was descended, as are some three million men worldwide, from Niall of the Nine Hostages, a medieval Irish king. Therefore it is helpful to test several cousins, such as all the grandchildren of a deceased couple, in order to know best what the ancestry was of the grandparents themselves. DNA test results are primary sources, and anyone wishing to share them under agreed privacy parameters is appreciated. It is likely that if a grant application were made on behalf of a sufficient number of interested descendants, the Louisiana Foundation for the Humanities (LEH) would provide funds for tests and for an ethnogeneticist to interpret the collective results and establish a reliable profile. Such a profile would help to establish the identity for persons whose "genealogical continuity" (your fourth prong) cannot be established due to non-existent records, adoptions, and the like.<BR/> <BR/>Again, I agree with you that not every individual having the right races in the right percentages and who claims the title, or has had it foisted upon him, is automatically a Redbone. I happen to think that the four-part definition you have formulated and laid out in your Foreword is the best I have yet seen, and I would like to have your permission to use it, or a simplified version of it preserving its essence, in the Wikipedia article, citing your online article.<BR/> <BR/>Notwithstanding its being the best yet seen, here is the critique I wrote upon first reading your definition: <BR/> <BR/>"Hayes' definition omits their pervasive Protestantism, is still too speculative about the genetics, and is unsupported by any genetic data. He is right in his basic concept of the group proper, and is right that it must be defined specifically rather than by the potentially expansive parameters given by Marler."<BR/> <BR/>I realize that the Protestantism is nurture rather than nature, but having one's father's surname is nurture as well. Both are proper tools in the genealogist's bag. Though it might be tweaked, your definition is based upon reasonable deduction from the federal census information and other verifiable facts, that the emigration from the eastern seaboard had a beginning or "opening" time, and an end or "closing" time, and that specific families, known and limited in number, exclusively define the group, which today consists solely of their descendants.<BR/> <BR/>I hope you are willing to correspond with me on this subject, and therefore I have provided my email address.<BR/> <BR/>Sincerely,<BR/> <BR/>King Alexander (Jr.)<BR/>ekajr1955@aol.com<BR/>Lake Charles, LouisianaKing Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17522887025426528476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9065080135451316107.post-18909622193070215132008-02-13T16:00:00.000-05:002008-02-13T16:00:00.000-05:00L V,I appeciate your effort.LarryL V,<BR/><BR/>I appeciate your effort.<BR/><BR/>LarryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9065080135451316107.post-69335082252993100422008-02-04T21:06:00.000-05:002008-02-04T21:06:00.000-05:00Well written, LV. Welcome to the blogosphere.Well written, LV. Welcome to the blogosphere.Ray Bridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496709017124120407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9065080135451316107.post-51043007291937503392008-02-03T16:18:00.000-05:002008-02-03T16:18:00.000-05:00This was GREAT You know it takes a REDBONE to tell...This was GREAT You know it takes a REDBONE to tell someone what a redbone really is. And you nailed it. Yes I believe that the redbones are not clannish or violent people, they were family and took care of family. This really brought back alot of memories for me thinking about how my family really was..Thank You L.V.Bridgethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00652363704840169756noreply@blogger.com